Editor’s Note: The following is an edited and condensed English-language translation of Ukrainska Pravda journalist Mustafa Nayyem's interview with Inna Bohoslovska, the member of parliament who quit the pro-presidential Party of Regions after the violent police crackdown on demonstrators in Kyiv’s Independence Square on Nov. 30.
The full-length, Russian language version can be read on Ukrainska Pravda’s website here
MN: What do you think,
what happened on Nov. 30? Why was the peaceful demonstration in Independence
Square stormed?
IB: Two hours before this
event I sent several people text messages that, from my point of view, a
violent dispersal is being prepared and if this happens I will go and protect
the children. In reply I received assurances that there is no way this will happen.
Everybody had apparently been ordered not to touch anyone because … it would be
the end of the government. All right-minded people understood that it is not
possible to spill blood in Ukraine, something that nobody has ever forgiven
historically and today also nobody will forgive. I believed them and went to
sleep peacefully.
MN: Where did you get the information that there would be a
violent dispersal?
IB: I can smell a
situation. I drove around, took a look. It was clear from everything I saw. You
saw what happened: The riot police gathered several times and somebody stopped
them at the last moment (until the crowd thinned out).
MN: Who bears responsibility for this?
IB: The sad fact that the
interior minister remains in his post shows that all responsibility for this
event is being borne by the president (Viktor Yanukovych). The biggest problem of the Regions’
Party recently has been the absence of contact with the president. He has
stopped speaking to people who previously were able to provide him with
information. He stopped speaking even to those whom we call the “granddads,”
with those who have been with him for all his life. He stopped accepting bad
news, he stopped accepting the truth. And naturally, as with all authoritarian
leaders, around him there developed an atmosphere in which damaging
relationships with him and speaking the truth became uncomfortable. And
from the moment he isolated himself from information, he fell under the
influence of somebody else’s decisions.
MN: Who could limit his access to information?
IB: He did it himself.
It simply ceased to be important to him. The court of the “czar”
always acts as the czar wishes.
MN: And who is now the court of the czar?
IB: It is difficult to say. One thing I can say for sure: the
scenarios which are currently being played out are those of Victor Medvedchuk
(pro-Russian former head of the Presidential Administration under Leonid Kuchma
and family friend of Vladimir Putin who is the godfather of his daughter). I am
prepared to put my head on the block and say that Medvedchuk is using Andriy Kluyev
(Secretary of the National Security and Defense
Council) other
friends to run his scenarios. It’s his style. And if Yanukovych does not stop
now, everything will end in rivers of blood. The center and west (of
Ukraine) will not give up the country to Putin – that is obvious. Strange
as it may sound, the southeast of Ukraine will also not give up the country.
The Russians will obviously start with Crimea. And if we want to keep the
country whole we should start working there.
MN: What do you think,
did Yanukovych know that there would be a violent dispersal of the
demonstration?
IB: I am certain. Without him nobody would have done such
a thing. On the other hand, he might have said, for example, “Well,
deal with things as the situation requires”. And the excitable lads
might have taken advantage of the situation. Right now there is the
impression that Yanukovych is being managed by the puppet masters. He is
in a very unstable condition. It was visible from the TV images of him in
Vilnius (at the Nov. 28-29 Eastern Partnership Summit in Lithuania). I saw his
face, I saw his eyes. There was the feeling that he is doing something
absolutely other than what he really wants.
MN: Who are these puppet masters?
IB: I am sure that right now the situation is being led by Putin
via Medvedchuk. They say that there is no such thing as 100 percent certainty,
but in this case I can say it with 100 percent certainty.
MN: Clearly it could not have all happened without some kind of
agreement with Putin. What could Putin have promised Yanukovych?
IB: I don’t know. I can say with absolute certainty that if
Yanukovych had signed the agreement he would 100 percent have been reelected. –
And he knew this himself! In the last meeting with the (parliamentary)
faction (of the Party of the Regions) he actually forced his will on everybody
who was in favor of the Russian vector. And at the same time I am certain that there is still a chance
to take a step back and ask the EU to call an extraordinary summit in order to
sign the association agreement with the EU.
MN: What is your most
negative prediction?
IB: Right now everybody needs to understand – either we organize
our opposition or we get covered in blood…I beg Yanukovych to understand that
if he does not stop this violence machine and does not sign or not return to
the EU then he and his people close to him will be cursed. He will
himself become the tailor of the funeral clothes for all those who are dearest
to him.
MN: Was the Party of Regions united in its decision to join
Europe?
IB: We had swings. Two months ago, Yanukovych met with the
faction. It was a closed meeting. He was at his most forceful and took
charge of the situation in a virtuoso manner. About one third of those present were
against the EU. He simply steamrollered them, bent them to his will.
MN: In this meeting was the issue of 160 billion euros
compensation for signing the association agreement raised?
IB: No. This 160 billion is total delirious ravings of
people who have gone completely mad…The European market is unattainable for us
at the moment. There may be 20 categories of our goods which are
competitive on the European market. But all the markets of the world are
open for Europe. And so it is worth
associating with the EU so that together we can enter different markets.
This is what caused all countries in the second wave of EU expansion to
enjoy GDP growth.
MN: Why did the rejection of the Association Agreement occur the
way it did – at a press conference without advance warning even through diplomatic channels?
IB: First of all, let us get one thing straight: Azarov never
ever makes announcements without pre-agreeing them with Yanukovych. Secondly, He
didn’t even agree it with the faction!
MN: Why then did all these intelligent people wreck the voting
for all the (imprisoned ex-Prime Minister Yulia) Tymoshenko laws on the last
day?
IB: Because an internal signal had been given that during the last
week (before the Vilnius summit) there would be an extraordinary session of
Parliament and we would pass all the laws. It was made clear to them that for
now we delay because the horse-trading is continuing, the final deal conditions
for Ukraine are being squeezed out (of the EU). And then we were supposed to
pass all the laws in one day on the prosecutor, elections and justice.
MN: We spoke with you
just before the voting session and you were 100 percent sure that the laws
would be passed. So there were people who knew the laws would not be passed?
IB: Andriy Kluyev knew
that the association agreement would not be signed.
MN: How could Kluyev know ?
IB: I believe from Victor Medvedchuk.
MN: The way you talk
you make it sound like they are in close contact…
IB: They are very close. Kluyev always felt that Medvedchuk is the
best lawyer in the post-Soviet world. In the end it turned out the two of them
wrapped everybody around their fingers, including people inside the party. In a
sense this was an internal revolution.
MN: But surely Kluyev
himself was leading the association negotiations for a year and a half, and
pretty successfully, he after all initialed the agreement!
IB: Hold on, you are being naïve. Andriy Kluyev is a figure who is
always being used to mislead people. This is his role. Remember the discussions
about uniting the Regions’ Party and BYuT (Bloc of Yulia Tymoshenko) in 2009.
He was the chief negotiator…He and Medvedchuk also wrote the constitution
together.
MN: We spoke to Deputy
Prime Minister Serhiy Arbuzov. And I formed the impression that he was already
100 perent sure that the agreement would be signed. Was this also a bluff?
IB: No. This team are pure Euro-integrators. Don’t laugh. They may
be young and despite the nightmares they create, in spite of all their lack of
qualifications and inability to communicate, in actual fact they are Euro-integrators.
MN: So Yanukovych treated his ‘family’ ministers the same as
the party faction, that is to say he mislead them?
IB: Yanukovych “surfed.” It seemed to him that he had caught some
kind of wave but in reality fell into a whirlpool. He can only climb out of it
one way, and that is to dash to Europe and convene a hasty summit.
MN: There is information that a new strategic agreement with
Russia is currently being prepared for signature. Do you know anything about it?
IB: No, nobody knows anything about it…A few days ago he met
with Medvedchuk and had a very long conversation. This is the Medvedchuk that
he knows is his enemy to the core of his being. I cannot explain what happened.
Yanukovych has buried himself as president in 2015, he has buried his country,
the stability which he developed all his life and which was his key feature.
When Yanukovych came, the economy grew and the population became calm. He has
simply blown himself up…The one thing I will say is that a person who is very
close to me has said that the last straw was the action of the Orthodox Church
under the Moscow Patriarchy. It is impossible to exclude this because
Yanukovych still listens to his spiritual fathers. I know for a fact that the
Church under the Moscow Patriarchy is praying everywhere that we do not join
Europe and has been working with parishioners. It may well be that they have
influenced him.
MN: Is there a chance for Victor Yanukovych to retain power ?
IB: Well, he can extend his existence for one more year if he
signs the Association Agreement now. He needs to remove all the negatives of
the last month. He needs to return to his old “normal” self whereby he felt the
country to be in his area of responsibility.
MN: What will happen with the Regions Party if Yanukovych resigns?
IB: The Regions Party has not been united at all for the past year.
Internally there are some very complex processes. 90 percent of members of the
parliamentary faction of the Regions Party are offended, denied and denigrated
by the government.
MN: Who do they regard as the head of executive power? The
prime minister?
IB: From the moment of appointment of (Deputy Prime Minister) Serhiy
Arbuzov, he has led the government. But about a month ago Azarov got his
authority back from Yanukovych. The thing is that the young team, known as the
economic bloc, has fouled up all of its work. They could not handle their
challenge, this was obvious. When Yanukovych appointed Arbuzov there was a
non-interference agreement made with Azarov in relation to the economic bloc.
In reality he was excluded and could only observe.
For example, when Azarov
raised economic questions at the Cabinet of Ministers one of the
representatives of the economic bloc would stand up and say: “This is my area
of responsibility, please don’t interfere, I am responsible for the result.”
That is to say the Cabinet of Ministers has not worked as a Cabinet of Ministers
for the last year
MN: If the “young team” did not fulfill its obligations, what
were their obligations? What do they want?
IB: They want money and power. But their problem is that they never
knew real life. I hope they can forgive me, but they are incubator babies. They
have existed in defined models of living since childhood. Look at their
biography. They are all well-educated, they are all strong-willed. But they
lived in closed conditions – familiar to their group of peers. It turns out
that they are absolutely not ready to run a country. They don’t even understand
the scale of the country. Yanukovych wanted to educate them in this, putting
them under strong bosses. But a colossal mistake was made when the control
function was taken away from these old people. The youth by their very nature
could not cope.
MN: Can one say that the very culture of “overseers” is
actually the management style of the country which is being applied by the
current team?
IB: You know what, when some time ago people asked me what kind of
President Yanukovych would be I said: “Take the book “The Price” by
Machiavelli, read it and you will get the full picture”. I wish I had been
wrong. It really is like that. He
is a leader of the Machiavellian type. Victor Yanukovych as a matter of fact is
far from a useless person. He has many positive characteristics, I am not now
talking about Euro-integration. In one year, he did more than the previous
president in his entire term. But
Yanukovych has one other problem. Many people with whom he was working did not
want Euro-integration. The problem is that if he with his organizational skills
goes, God forbid, in the wrong direction he will definitely organize the wrong
processes highly systematically. And the route which started three weeks ago
and ended with bloodshed on Independence Square is a very terrifying route.
Including for him and his family.
MN: What do you think, is it possible to disband Independence
Square?
IB: No, they will not go up against a large number of people.
They do not have the physical strength. When the numbers fall they will act.
