Editor's Note: The following interview by journalist Konrad Schuller with Ukranian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk was published on Feb. 26 by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. The German newspaper granted the Kyiv Post permission to translate and republish the interview. © All Rights Reserved. Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung GmbH, Frankfurt. Provided by Frankfurter Allgemeine Archiv."
Konrad Schuller: Mr. Prime Minister, you were one of the leaders of the democratic revolution on the Maidan (that drove President Viktor Yanukovych from power in 2014). But you only survived a no-confidence vote in parliament (on Feb. 16) because a lot of the oligarchs whom you fought against back then supported you. Your opponents now say that you’re a marionette for the clans.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk: Some of my opponents – those who voted against me – were once part of my coalition: Samopomich and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko’s Batkivshchyna Party. They never supported our reforms, whether our savings plans or our budgets.
KS: And, in fact, Tymoshenko did fight against your reform of the gas market. Even though your Western lenders consider it your most important achievement.
AY: She didn’t succeed in pushing oligarch Dmytro Firtash out of the gas industry back in the day. I did.
KS: But despite that, Firtash’s partner Serhiy Lyovochkin, the former chief of staff for President Viktor Yanukoyvch – who has now fled to Russia – supported you in the no-confidence vote. How does that make any sense?
AY: Let’s return to that later. At any rate, in this coalition my People’s Front has been the only party that has always supported the reforms. The other three only grudgingly accepted the debt restructure that we’re pushing through with the help of our Western partners.
KS: The three parties include President Petro Poroshenko’s.
AY: It’s true that our coalition partners attack us harder than the opposition. Once, a member of Poroschenko’s bloc even tried to use force to pull me off the parliamentary podium. Still: I have been doing everything I can to avoid a repeat of the 2005 scenario, when the pro-democracy camp collapsed into personality-based infighting after the Orange Revolution.
KS: But your popularity has fallen to almost zero these days.
AY: I have paid a high price. I pushed for the unpopular reforms to the gas market, shored up the budget and haven’t ever attacked the president’s party. I feel that preserving our unity is more important than gaining a couple of points in the polls.
KS: Has the president’s faction tried to wear you down with its constant criticism?
AY: His party didn’t want these reforms. They have always been poll driven. But we still need one or two years until the economy bounces back and the results show. With the situation as it is, being obsessed with popularity is disasterous. So I said to the president: If you don’t want me anymore, then you’ll have to form a new government. But you won’t be able to, and so that’ll lead to early elections. And in the interim there would be no one to conclude our vital loan deal with the International Monetary Fund.
KS: Does your criticism extend to the president’s party, which is still formally still in the coalition?
AY: Absolutely. Most of them supported the no-confidence motion and block our reforms. But a third didn’t go along with [the motion], including the leader of the persecuted Crimean Tatars. Is he an example of the type of oligarch you were talking about?
KS: Mustafa Dzhemilev is a highly-regarded former Soviet dissident. But the oligarchs’ Opposition Bloc also backed you.
AY: They only backed me because if I lost, then early elections would be inevitable. But they don’t want them yet. They know that if the current row in the coalition continues they’ll be stronger a year from now. They’d prefer to wait.
KS: If the oligarchs can afford to bide their time, then it seems that it’s not going all that badly for them. They’re obviously not under that much pressure from you.
AY: Fact is that we shut down Firtash. We regained control over the Ukrnafta oil company from those guys. We raised their taxes, we didn’t squander any of the state-owned enterprises on them. Show me what they’re meant to have got from us!
KS: There have been repeated allegations of fraud involving state-owned enterprises.
AY: Please provide me with some facts here.
KS: Half of the profits from goods sold by Electrotezhmash electrical engineering firm ended up with a shady intermediary. State-owned enterprise Ukrenergo planned to buy transformers from a friendly oligarch for three times the market price.
AY: Please provide me facts showing that there’s been some deal between me and Ukrainian oligarchs, whether it be (Rinat) Ahkmetov, (Ihor) Kolomoisky or anyone else.
KS: I can name a member of your team, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, a member of your party. Ukrainska Pravda has published documents that say he’s apparently running a business, though he’s not permitted to do so.
AY: More on Avakov later. Again, what have the oligarchs got from me? High taxes, and an end to dodgy privatizations. I took back from them the state-owned enterprises they had seized. Please provide me with one incriminating fact.
KS: Swiss prosecutors are of the view that Mykola Martynenko – a leading deputy from your party – used his contacts in the nuclear power industry to pocket bribes from suppliers.
AY: That was before I became prime minister. And Martynenko had to give up his seat.
KS: But only after the public pressure got too much for him.
AY: And take a closer look at this pressure. It came from Serhiy Lyovochkin’s television station – from Yanukovych’s former chief of staff. There’s no end to the mudslinging!
KS: But isn’t it surprising that Lyovochkin of all people lent you a big helping hand with the no-confidence vote?
AY: He didn’t help me out. He just didn’t vote for it [the motion].
KS: And he saved your skin by doing so.
AY: He only did that so that you would turn up and ask me questions like this. He’s an unbelievably astute political animal.
KS: And one who doesn’t apparently feel that threatened by your war on corruption.
AY: It’s not my job to threaten people. Where you’re from, can Mrs. (Germany Chancellor Angela) Merkel just decide to put people behind bars? The prime minister is not the prosecutor general.
KS: And the Prosecutor General has failed completely. Not one big case of corruption has made it to court. And didn’t your party also support the nomination of the most recent officeholders?
AY: Yes. Because the president has the right to name the prosecutor general.
KS: But the parliament isn’t obliged to express confidence in each and every apparatchik.
AY: It’s the president’s responsibility. I am the head of government. I can only fight corruption by deregulating, cutting back bureaucracy and raising wages.
KS: In the West, it’s true that people do praise your structural reforms to the gas market. But – again and again – there are cases like those of interior minister Avakov, who is accused of illegal business dealings.
AY: As far as I know, that’s not true. I asked him about it and said to him: If that’s true then you’ll be punished. If it’s not true, go to court over it. And he has promised to sue.
KS: You’ve no majority in parliament right now. Tymoshenko’s Batkivshchyna and Samopovich have left the coalition amidst the row over the corruption allegations. Now some say that right-wing populist Oleh Lyashko could step into the breach.
AY: What’s most important now is where Poroshenko’s bloc stands. A large majority of the president’s party voted for the no-confidence motion against me. Now I want to know if they will go along with our upcoming reforms. If they will, then we can look for new coalition partners together; for example, amongst the 51 independents. I would also be happy to see (Radical Party leader Oleh) Lyashko in the coalition.
KS: He’s a man whom Amnesty International has criticized for allegedly using excessive force in the conflict zone; a man who rejects the Minsk peace deal.
AY: He supports our reforms.
KS: Will you also demand he supports Minsk?
AY: We had two options in Minsk: A bad one and a very bad one. We chose the bad option, and there’s no alternative to it.
KS: Did the president’s party betray the reform plans by demanding your sacking?
AY: They acted under pressure because of the polls. That’s not very statesman-like behavior.
KS: Does your criticism extend to Poroshenko?
AY: The president is still my partner. We have implemented unpopular reform measures a number of times. I respect that.
KS: Despite that, the coalition seems split, everyone is accusing everyone else of corruption. How are your European Union partners meant to convince voters that the expensive sanctions against Russia still make sense?
AY: Take a look at your own country. There are also conflicts there, like the one over the refugee crisis. That’s how democracy works. If we don’t like it, then we might as well do what (Russian President Vladimir) Putin’s doing.
KS: He’ll be happy if you keep this up – all the accusations of corruption. How can the EU find agreement in June on prolonging the sanctions with all this going on?
AY: That’s why I’m always biting my lips.
