VIDEO
In “Eurointegrators,” media expert and ex-Deputy Minister for Information Policy of Ukraine Tetiana Popova sits down with diplomats, heads of international organizations, and Ukrainian power brokers to discuss Ukraine’s European integration.
In this episode, the guest is Rebecca Harms, an ex-member of the European Parliament.
Watch other episodes of “EuroIntegrators.”
The show is produced by a Ukrainian NGO Information Security and Oboz.TV.
See the text version of the interview:
Popova: Hello. In this new episode of the “Eurointegrators” program, my guest is Rebecca Harms, an ex-member of the European Parliament. Also Rebecca was a supervisor on the last Ukrainian parliamentary elections, and Rebecca will work soon in Ukraine, right?
Harms: I hope so, I’m nearly sure.
Popova: This time you decided not to be elected to the European Parliament. Why?
Harms: I have been a member of the Lower Saxonian Parliament and the European Parliament for overall more than 26 years. And I decided already long time ago that I would leave my job in the parliament on a decision I take on my own. And I also decided when I became a member of parliament in Brussels 15 years ago, that I would not do it until the end of my life. So, I think right now I’m still able to do something in a real world. And I even hope that I can do this in Kyiv.
Popova: In this case, tell us more about your new job in Kyiv, if you are allowed to.
Harms: My overall idea is that I would like to contribute personally a bit more to the democratic process and the Ukrainian way towards the European Union. You know I like the country, not to say I love the country, and I hope if I spend more time and if I’m working more on the ground in Kyiv and in the country, I can contribute better.
Popova: You tell that you love Ukraine, like Ukraine. And you were really one of the best lobbyists of Ukraine’s interests in the European Parliament. Why did you do so?
Harms: Ukraine and myself – this is a very, very special story, and it started long time ago. It started in the year of 1988. It all began with an invitation by the Soviet Union’s “PEN club”. They invited me as a nuclear expert, especially on the fall out after the Chernobyl catastrophe. They invited me to visit the exclusion zone of Chernobyl, this 30 km zone together with Ukrainian writers and liquidators. And I accepted the invitation after a long, long dispute with my husband. He did not want me to go. I went there, and after very sad, but also very exciting day in the zone with Yuriy Shcherbak, he was my personal guide, I had first meetings on what I saw and how I judge what I saw in the exclusion zone, in Kyiv. And later on I had a big meeting with writers, journalists and scientists in Moscow. You know maybe meanwhile a bit more about Chernobyl than Ukrainians still had in their heads before this famous HBO series went on television channels of this world. I know the developments in the zones since 1988. So for me it was always one catastrophe in line of catastrophes or cruelties, major crimes against humanity Ukraine suffered from. And since I visited Chernobyl in 1988 I was trying to work to the benefit of Ukraine.
Popova: You were an observer on the last elections. What do you think, what changes it’ll bring to Ukraine? What do you expect from the new Ukrainian parliament?
Harms: As all observers in this recent mission, I was also surprised by so obvious huge and strong wish of majority of Ukrainians to see major shift, major change in the political elites, responsible for politics in this country. But meanwhile I understood that Ukrainians wanted to have new approaches, new faces, new people with less connections or no connections in the past of Ukrainian politics. And I understood that even some of the people I liked a lot among the euro-optimists had now to leave their jobs, which they did pretty well in the Rada. Because Ukrainians supported ideas, that everything should start now in Kyiv from the scratch. I think that this is obviously necessary. I think that Ukrainians citizens connect the change to very good wishes and good ideas. I hope that president Zelensky and the new government, but also the new Rada will be good representatives of the citizens of Ukraine. Because the change is not yet made. The change has still to come.
Popova: In your previous answer, you told that you wanted to return back to real life after your long work in the European Parliament. Do you think that politicians should not be working in parliament forever, but they should be one or two times a member of the parliament, and then come back to real life?
Harms: I am a bit biased on this, even with my own decision to leave the European Parliament now. I think that so rotation is necessary and I think should have also a good connection to citizens. And normally this works better if a politician also has experience in a normal profession, has done a normal job. I find it sometimes dubious that there are too many people coming from university, going directly into parliament, and then spend rest of their life in parliament. But for Ukraine, for example, I think rotation is needed, but also continuity is needed. As I said already, I would have loved to see more of the euro-optimists from the last Verkhovna Rada to continue what they started in the last legislature. It’s also based on my experience in the cooperation that some of the changes we saw in Ukraine and which I would like to continue – reforms concerning the fight against corruption or better functioning institutions. This should all continue. It’s a pity that especially those young change-makers who came after Maidan for the first time to Verkhovna Rada, that many of them will not be a part of the new Rada. So, I would say rotation is good, experience in the parliament and outside matters, but also continuity matters. I’m among those who hope that there is a political future for the euro-optimists.
Popova: How do you see them? In the government?
Harms: I don’t know whether there is now a solution. But for example I met Iegor Sobolev. He was the Chair of the anti-corruption committee. I did not always agree with his political ideas, and I did not always agree with “Samopomitch”. But Iegor is one of those people, who really know how to fight corruption in the institutions. He’s now thinking about a new party. It’s a long way to go, but he will not give in. Svitlana Zalishchuk – I’m getting news from her after her campaign. And fingers crossed that especially these very experienced women will have a chance to still contribute to necessary continuation of reforms, more ambitious reforms and change in Ukraine.
Popova: You told that you were in Ukraine first time in 1988, even before the country was formed. Can you say, what changes you’ve already seen? What happened, from your point of view? And what has not yet happened in order Ukraine to become a European country?
Harms: when I came, this country was a completely different country. It did not exist as an independent state, it was a part of the Soviet Union and the communist empire, directed from Moscow. I think what I understood also with help of Yuriy Shcherbak, who was my guide in Chernobyl but also helped me to understand the situation in Kyiv and in the Soviet Union, and the tensions in between. What I understood already in 1988 was that it could not continue as it was. Everything I witnessed in the Chernobyl zone, every liquidator I spoke to, everything that Yuriy Shcherbak explained to me from this big effort to fight the Chernobyl catastrophe, showed me that one single human life did not really count. Many lives did not count in Soviet Union to overcome the catastrophe. Many people saved, not only security of the Soviet Union, but also after Chernobyl on the European continent. But the victims, which should be counted from this, are also quite numerous. And in the Chernobyl clean-up in the intransparent and irresponsible way people were sent to fight the nuclear fire. You could recognize why the Soviet Union had to collapse also. And since everything has changed. It was not a fast change. After independence, stepwise you could observe the change, but I think since 2013-2014 Ukrainians are really on the way out of the influence of the Soviet Union’s system. And the new Ukraine is really what is getting more and more sustainable – new democratic Ukraine. For me, the main difference compared to what I witnessed in the years I first came to Ukraine is that the relation in between the citizen and the state has completely changed. People are expecting something from the state, and for good reasons, some institutions have to function very well. But also, the citizens take their own responsibility to make all this work. And they take also responsibility for their own destinies.
Popova: Returning of Russia to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe – it’s happened recently. Why did German government, German parliament and France support this idea of Russia’s returning to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?
Harms: Some people tell me that this is because the Russian civil society is in need for support by the European court for human rights to bring their cases there and to get better justice in Russia.
Popova: But Russia is not fulfilling it. It’s nonsense.
Harms: You are right. This argument doesn’t fly, because in best cases the state of Russia gave a bit compensation moneywise.
Popova: 33 million euros per year, as far as I understand.
Harms: What really is an argument is that Russia pays for the Council of Europe. I think some of the players want Russia to be on any price in the Council of Europe. I would say it’s not a bad idea to have Russia in the Council of Europe, but the better idea is to put conditions on this and to make Russia comply with the ideas of the Council of Europe, with Human rights Convention. For me it was a moment of shame for the western countries in the Council of Europe. Because immediately after the Court of the seas in Hamburg decided in favor of the state of Ukraine and against Russia, that Ukrainian sailors have to be released, and their detention is illegal, and in bridge with the international law, the international community in the Council of Europe invited Russia to come back to the Council of Europe to the Parliamentary Assembly without any condition. And it’s even more severe because Russia never had left so far the Council of Europe. The Duma delegation was not in the Parliamentary Assembly, so even was so wrong, Russia was still in the Council of Europe. For the actual situation, I like that the Ukrainians and other eastern partners in the Council of Europe, but also the Baltic countries and some more Eastern-Europeans and Scandinavians are forming a new alliance in the Council of Europe. I agree that Ukraine has not yet made a decision to leave the Council of Europe. I agree that they did not accept parliamentary observation mission for these recent elections, was good to put some limits. But I think Ukrainians and Georgians, Armenians and Moldovans should find in the new coalition, even if it’s not a majority, a better way to profile their positions and their interests in the Council of Europe.
Popova: Does Europe feel in overall Russia’s influence, anti-Ukrainian messages or Euro-sceptic sentiments?
Harms: In some of the countries, we have very tuff Russian disinformation campaign. One of the targets of Russian disinformation is to spoil the image of Ukraine and to spoil even the image of liberal democratic states. It’s going quite far, you can even see in some of the news, produced by public broadcasters in Germany or in the UK. You can find messages directly taken from the Russian news agencies, from “Ruptly” or from “Sputnik”. Especially during the last days I sometimes suffered for example when I heard from a German second public channel saying that corruption is kind of in the DNA of the Ukrainian nation. It’s mostly targeting the war and the occupation issues. If Germans or British or French citizens are following often “Ruptly” or “Sputnik”, then they until today might believe that there is a war without any Russian participation.
Popova: Can changes in the government of Germany, affiliated with step-out of Angela Merkel from her position, change the Ukraine-German relations, from your point of view?
Harms: Angela Merkel is a great leader of Germany. She is as a woman very successful. And also because of her origins in Eastern Germany, she knows a lot about the Soviet Union’s empire. And I think this gave her the strength she needed to convince the majority of the EU leaders to the way we did after Putin invaded Crimea and Donbass, Eastern Ukraine. I think without her we would not have the sanctions regime. But I think that still in Germany and in other countries we have a political majority to continue this strategy she started. I follow closely what is developing now on Bankova with the president Zelenskyi. I like the idea that we try a fresh and strong approach to war and to push Russia out of Ukraine. We know that this will be supported not militarily from the EU states, most of them, but politically. We know also, at least I know that Mr. Zelenskyi cannot achieve peace without very strong support of the West. I hope that still with Angela Merkel and some others in power there will be strong political new start based on Minsk. But being more ambitious then only repeating and repeating what we have already agreed in Minsk. I think that Ukrainians in the recent elections showed for very good reasons, that they want peace for their country. They do not want it without conditions. They want not to give in to occupation. They want Ukraine to return to its original own borders. But they want peace. I think we have to take it much more serious in the west, and we have also to take serious that this is not something we can leave to only the Ukrainians and the new government and president.
Popova: Are you sure that Putin is ready to give Donbass back to Ukraine?
Harms: It will be a question of how to speak to him. I observe that in Russia the support of Vladimir Putin is going more and more down. The support after the occupation of Crimea was not lasting very long. The problems in Russia make the president of Russia weaker already now. I think his appetite for ongoing war and invasion is getting less. But it’s maybe also something what is to be tested. What is really needed is clarity in the West. The ongoing debates in some countries, whether we need sanctions or not should stop. Sanctions are the fundament for achieving more. Nord Stream is kind of nail in the coffin for western strategy. I think Germans should understand that they even give in on their own security and EU security, if they forget about Ukrainian interest in the gas market and offer this big gas deal to the Russians.
Popova: It will be actually also dependence on Russia.
Harms: It’s more dependence on Russia is not in complies and in conflict with the idea of economic and personalized sanctions.
Popova: After Ukraine signed the Euro association agreement, we received in some kinds of products of Ukraine (usually agriculture) some quotas. And in some categories, these quotas finish during one month. What shall we do about it, from your point of view?
Harms: I think the European Union gas to allow more imports of quality products from Ukraine. I think European Union should be more concerned about better economic and by also social development in Ukraine. The economic reforms and the institution reforms, which we are asking based on the association agreement, are tough for Ukrainians. I think one of the big issues for the next period is we want reforms in health sector, or in the judiciary, or some of the economic reforms and privatization. We want them to be faster. But the European Union also has to have mind that these reforms sometimes require high price to be paid by Ukrainian citizens. Social situation is not getting better, but got worse poverty, worse development in Ukraine. I think the fight against poverty must be included into the strategy of reforms. It cannot be simply ignored. If you allow more export to the European Union – we allow more imports. Then this will have more good impact also for the life of Ukrainians and for the social situation.
Popova: You think we should negotiate it?
Harms: You should. And European Union should be much more flexible.
Popova: You supported decentralization. Why do you think this process is important for Ukraine?
Harms: I think it’s about the new relation in between the citizens and their state. The distance from local community or regions to Kyiv is long, not only in kilometers. And the centralized state is not the best state for developing liberal-democratic system with a lot of participation and responsibility for the citizens. I very much hope that by giving more responsibility, also more money to the representatives of the citizens on the local and regional level, we will contribute to more sustainable democratization process in Ukraine.
Popova: At the same time, you told me that you are against early elections on the local level. You think it should happen in their planned time. Why?
Harms: We had now three elections: two rounds of the presidential elections and the parliamentary election. With the clear result and very clear responsibility for one new party. From my point of view, it is now the moment that newly elected people in the Rada, in the new government on Bankova Street should start seriously to work. As I understand many citizens, also the citizens of Ukraine now want to see that something is going on again in politics in Ukraine. If you go now in Ukraine for another round of snap elections. I think there is again a lot of political competition. There is a lot of concentration on the fight in between the competing parties, and the work in Kyiv will be sidelined. I think there are so many things to be done, also with the cooperation with the European Union or the international organizations like the IMF – this should not be longer interrupted, the work should continue. But we will see. Maybe it’s also a view of a friend of Ukraine from Brussels. I can tell you that the friends of Ukraine in Brussels institutions really want to go back and to work, to continue reforms and to be with the new people in power even more ambitious on a better future of Ukraine.
Popova: At the same time you understand that these old regional elites, who are now ruling cities, especially big cities, are totally different from these new elected members of parliament? It will be a conflict in any way. People on the local level cannot see these changes.
Harms: Let’s see. I understand some reasons. But also I think there are strong and serious reasons behind the idea that local elections would take anyway place next year. So it’s not too long to go. While doing a good job in Kyiv you can also prepare good conditions to convince people next year in local elections with new candidates running for the local positions.
Popova: About early elections. In Austria recently some scandal about possible cooperation between a member of the government of the ruling party with Russians led to early elections. Is it only a situation in Austria, when early elections could happen just because of the scandal after the cooperation with Russia, or it’s now happening in other countries of Europe as well? And the scandal started from Germany as far as I remember.
Harms: It can happen everywhere. In all constitutions there are conditions how to do it. You should respect constitution on this. Spain by the way is having snap elections soon again. So it happens. In Ukraine, the recent decision on the early election for the parliament, for the Verkhovna Rada, was doubtful, considering Ukrainian constitution. But the Constitutional court decided it should happen, so go for it, citizens obviously wanted it. But to gain more power, you should you for any situation forget about constitution. As I said, my feeling is that citizens In Ukraine really now expect the new people to show that they can do what they promised to do. I was in the Parliament, and I am an active member of the Green Party in Germany, ecological party, I was active since nearly 27 years as a politician. I can tell you: if you have elections, if you have election campaign – always the work is not done as without having campaign and elections coming soon. So election campaigns always “eat” the attentions of the politicians, because nobody can stay out of the competition.
Popova: What Ukraine should do in order to become a member of the European Union? Is it possible in overall for Ukraine to be a member of the European Union?
Harms: From my point of view it’s quite clear that the European Union should respect their own treaties. In the EU’s treaties it is said that every country complying with the set of criteria, which we have fixed, can become a member of the European Union. The door for the Ukrainians, for Ukraine and other eastern partner countries. The door to the European Union should be as open as it is fixed in our treaties. Today I would say that for Ukraine it’s also good that we have the association agreement. And while implementing the reforms from this association agreement Ukraine is doing the preparation to enter the European Union. I know probably the German parliament and some other western parliament have not the majority for this idea. But I know at the same time that in all over Eastern Europe everybody agrees that I’m right. Many of my colleagues from Eastern and Central Europe think the same. Also many Scandinavians think the same way. So, doing the reforms, doing this transformation is the way from my point of view into the European Union.
Popova: Thanks Rebecca for your words. Thanks for coming to our studio. Thanks to everyone who watched us. See you next week.
