Editor's Note: This Kyiv Post interview with U.S. Sen. John McCain, who died on Aug. 25, 2018, was published on Dec. 16, 2013, amid the EuroMaidan Revolution that ultimately drove Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych from power on Feb. 22, 2014. McCain, a leading foreign policy expert in the Republican Party, and Chris Murphy, a Democrat who sits on the Senate's Europe subcommittee, were in Kyiv to deliver messages of support to EuroMaidan demonstrators as well as other messages to Ukraine's opposition, oligarchs and top officials, including Yanukovych. The senators gave a joint interview to the Kyiv Post on Dec. 15.
Murphy leads an effort in the U.S. Senate to approve a new resolution, which calls for “targeted sanctions, including visa bans and asset freezes, against individuals responsible for ordering and carrying out violence” against peaceful protesters in Ukraine, now in their fourth week.
McCain said he believes Ukraine should be looking to create a caretaker government, and then proceed to solve the current political gridlock, but would not venture into advising on how it should proceed. “I’ve got a pretty big ego, but not that big,” he said.
Kyiv Post: What were you biggest impressions from EuroMaidan?
Christopher Murphy: The atmosphere was both electric and positive, and the organization amidst such numbers and activity was stunning as well. I think we wanted to deliver a simple message that the American people and the U.S. Senate stands with the Ukrainian people; we expect there to be change; we know there is a debate about what change that needs to be, but we certainly believe that at the heart of it is the Ukrainian future with Europe and we have been delivering a consistent message. We’re ready to do what it takes to help Ukraine join Europe now and in the future.
John McCain: A remarkable historic event and it’s really honestly a great pleasure to observe the event, great pleasure to observe this. There are many aspects of it that are very interesting, but one of the – I think – important factors is that young people are genuinely in the avant-garde of these protests.
KP: If you were to distill, from what you have heard from the opposition, the civic society and the people you have talked to, what are their demands, what would you say?
JM: The focus is the Ukrainian membership in the European Union, but that goal (encompasses) many factors: the corruption which they are tired of, the beating of the demonstrators, the heavy-handed mistreatment of the demonstrators a few weeks ago was a very uniting factor. The very charismatic leader amongst others, Mr. (Vitali) Klitschko, the world-renowned boxer, has attracted a lot of support.
CM: We just met with a group of students, and one of the students said “This is about dignity.” That comes in different forms – the economic dignity, there is personal dignity, there is civic dignity. But Europe represents an assurance that there will be rule of law and expectation to be treated in a certain way, a reduction of corruption.
KP: You have met with a number of Ukraine’s oligarchs, many of whom are still wavering as to what side they support. Is the U.S. weighing in to encourage them to tip to one side or another? Are you offering any carrots or stick, such as a U.S. visa for Rinat Akhmetov, who has not been able to get one?
JM: It’s true that the oligarchs are very (or the) most important factor in whether this whole effort will succeed or not. There are varying degrees of support from these oligarchs, from all-out support to distance, and everything in between. Some of them, to be frank, their attitude is dictated by what they think is the chance of this movement of succeeding is. And then, there are others who realize that membership in the European Union gives them a much bigger opportunity at job creation and growth than being associated with Russia. So, I am generally pleased with the attitude of most of the oligarchs. Some of them have drawn a clear separation between themselves and the president, but obviously we would like to see a lot more of that.
CM: A lot of these guys are capped out in terms of how much they can grow simply within the bounds of Ukraine, and Russia doesn’t offer the kind of growth potential that the European Union does. And I think that there is a concern about the rule of law that seems to be slipping away day after day as more economic power gets consolidated in the hands of people close to the regime.
JM: There oligarchs are – for the most part – business people. They see Russia, the world’s 13th largest economy, and they see the European Union, the world’s largest economy. It’s pretty clear what their ultimate choice is probably going to be if they think this movement can succeed.
KP: So, what do you think would tip them over?
JM: I think some of them are tipping already. I think that one of the key elements is going to be – to reinforce the tipping over – is the path to membership in the European Union, which we understand today, is not progressing.
KP: Where do you see the role of the US in the processes that are happening in Ukraine? You expressed full support to the people rallying and demonstrating for their rights, but what else can the US do?
CM: The path to financial sovereignty of Ukraine has to run through the IMF. Ultimately, Russia may be able to provide a short-term solution, but can’t provide the kind of long-term stability that a relationship with the IMF and Europe can. We think the United States can be helpful in negotiating the conditions of that loan, but it’s nearly impossible to do that, given the current uncertainty as to the association agreement.
JM: We’re still the most admired nation – at least in Ukraine. They do look to us, and from what I understand they admire the United States and they want our moral support. I thought Secretary John Kerry’s message was a very powerful one and it was well-received here. Victoria Nuland, I also think, was very good. Our ambassador here does an outstanding job. Frankly, I would like to see the president speak up on behalf, and I think he may.
The other aspect, from a more practical standpoint, is that if there is an aid package from the European Union, I think the United States is, and would be prepared – to assist in that financial bridge that they need now, given the really serious economic conditions or budgetary conditions that there exist.
KP: Would that be a separate package from the European, or would chip in on the European package?
JM: I think it depends. I think the easiest thing would be to contribute to the European package, but I would leave that to the situation at that time.
KP: So, you just believe that there is political will to help financially?
JM: Yes, there is.
KP: Another part of the message that has been coming from the U.S. over the past week or so is about sanctions. How real is that threat?
JM: We want to be very careful about it because we don’t want to just willy-nilly threaten it. But at the same time, we want to send a message that if repression and abuse of human rights continues, then the United States Congress, in a bipartisan fashion, would examine the options that are entailed in sanctions. But I want to emphasize that that’s our last act, not our first. And we want to give every opportunity for this system to work, and a better government, and all the things that people in the square are now agitating for.
CM: We think we have a lot to offer Ukraine in its path towards Europe, and that’s really our message. And we have heard consistently from within the government today that they regret the aggressive actions on the square, that they have begun the steps to hold people accountable and that there will be no further violent episodes of the square, precipitated by government authorities. We take them at their word. If that word holds, there will be no need to discuss sanctions. But we feel that we have to make it clear that if the rule of law is not upheld, then it’s our responsibility to look at the options available to us to answer the concerns of the people we represent.
JM: One thing I am sure of, it would not only be bipartisan, but it would be Congress and the (President Barack Obama) administration working together.
KP: I would like to go back to the issue of trust. You were saying that the president gave his promise that there was going to be no violence. But when Victoria Nuland was here, on Dec. 10, he gave her the exact same promise. And at the same time, we had a document leaked already from out security services that showed that they extended preparation for martial law on that very day until Dec. 31, and they were preparing to use force. So, how can you trust the president in this kind of circumstances?
CM: That’s why we’re making it very clear that if the trust is violated, there could be consequences. I don’t think we can make it any more clear than that.
JM: We would rely on the leadership of the opposition for their judgement, to some degree.
KP: The US did a lot to investigate our former Prime Minister Pavlo Lazarenko in the U.S. and the money-laundering operations. Many people are wondering in Ukraine whether you would be willing, at any point, to do the same for our president and his family who are believed to be living off corruption.
JM: I think it’s something that’s much better to give some time because too often there is a change of government, and people are thrown in jail. For example, both of us favor Yulia Tymoshenko being allowed to go to Germany for medical treatment. So, before we would make a judgment like that I think the most important thing is for a transition to take place, not the threats or aspects of it that may impede that transition.
CM: We ultimately have faith in the democratic power of this country. I think that’s one of the things that we’re trying to reinforce today is that, while we support many of the ambitions expressed on the square, we also make it clear that democracy and elections are the way you can best carry out the will of the people.
KP: What do you think is Vladimir Putin’s role in the events in Ukraine?
JM: I believe that Mr. Putin has put pressure throughout the perimeter of Russia, ranging from Moldova, having occupied parts of Georgia, Lithuania, the Baltic countries. And I believe that Mr. Putin believes that Ukraine is a vital part of Russia’s near abroad. I’d be very concerned about what action he takes to try to harm the Ukrainian economy or punish the Ukrainian people, or other actions which could be harmful to what is being sought right now as we speak. So, I would be very concerned about what actions Mr. Putin may take, particularly considering actions he has taken here in the past.
Kyiv Post deputy chief editor Katya Gorchinskaya can be reached at [email protected] and Kyiv Post editor Christopher J. Miller can be reached at [email protected].
